Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/28/1995 03:38 PM Senate RES
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SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 28, 1995
3:38 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chairman
Senator Steve Frank
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Lyman Hoffman
ALSO PRESENT
Senator Lyda Green
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARING: Frank Rue, Commissioner
Department of Fish & Game
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 207(FIN) am
"An Act relating to adjustments to royalty reserved to the state to
encourage otherwise uneconomic production of oil and gas; and
providing for an effective date."
SENATE BILL NO. 171
"An Act delaying the repeal of the current law regarding
subsistence use of fish and game; and providing for an effective
date."
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 22
Requesting research on fisheries and marine mammals in the Bering
Sea.
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 23
Proposing postage stamps honoring wild Alaska salmon and centuries
of continued use of wild Alaska salmon for subsistence, commercial,
and sport fish harvesters.
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 207 - See Resources minutes dated 4/22/95, 4/26/95.
SB 171 - No previous action to record.
SJR 22 - See Resources minutes dated 4/26/95.
SJR 23 - No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER
John Peterson, Chief Estimator
Alaska Interstate Construction
625 Highland Circle
Anchorage, AK 99518
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports CSHB 207(FIN) am
Tom Lakosh
P.O. Box 100648
Anchorage, AK 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes CSHB 207(FIN) am
Commented on SB 171
Sam McDowell
336 E. 23rd Ave.
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes confirmation of Commissioner Rue
Dale Bondurant
HC 1, Box 1197
Soldotna, AK 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposes confirmation of Commissioner Rue
Opposes passage of SB 171
George Irvin
Alaska Federation of Natives
1577 C St., No. 100
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 171
Roger McKowan, Staff to Senator Hoffman
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Offered information on SJR 22
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-50, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:38 p.m.
CSHB 207(FIN) am ADJUSTMENTS TO OIL AND GAS ROYALTIES
SENATOR LEMAN brought CSHB 207(FIN) am before the committee as the
first order of business. He stated testimony would be taken from
witnesses present at the Anchorage LIO and that the committee would
continue to work on a Resources SCS.
Number 030
JOHN PETERSON, Chief Estimator, Alaska Interstate Construction,
Anchorage, said as a 45-year resident of Alaska, he has seen all
resource development diminish as a result of regulations and
legislation passed by agencies that Alaskans cannot control.
Alaskans are continuing to be denied access to their resources by
various influences. Alaska is at a competitive disadvantage in
attracting capital investments because of high transportation,
exploration development costs. etc., and Alaska needs a strategy to
counter these disadvantages. He believes CSHB 207(FIN) am will
provide the industry with enough protection and incentives to
pursue development of the smaller marginal fields by removing a
portion of the monetary risks. It will also encourage the state
and industry to work together to change the economic equation of
marginal fields.
Number 101
TOM LAKOSH, testifying from Anchorage, said he believes the
proposal in HB 207 is untenable under contract law or
administrative procedures, especially because it will be applicable
to leases which have already been let. He believes it will open
the State of Alaska to a large liability from potential lessees
that have bid on those sites at a fairly competitive rate and who
now find that they were bypassed by companies who had no intention
of fulfilling their lease contracts. Further, it also violates the
rights of Alaskans to due process, because the legislature is
planning to change the conditions of those leases without proper
due process for its citizens.
There being no further witnesses wishing to testify, SENATOR LEMAN
closed the public hearing on HB 207 and stated the committee would
take a brief at ease.
Number 175
The next order of business was the continuation of the confirmation
hearing for Commissioner-designee Frank Rue, Department of Fish &
Game.
SAM MCDOWELL, a 37-year resident of Alaska testifying from
Anchorage, stated he is extremely concerned about the diversion of
funds and the gross mismanagement of the King Salmon license fee
money, etc. The department has diverted hundreds of thousands of
dollars down to Earl West Cove. He is strongly opposed to the
confirmation of Mr. Rue, and has told him that an independent
auditor will be hired and a court injunction will be filed against
the Department of Fish & Game if this situation is not changed.
Number 235
DALE BONDURANT, testifying from Soldotna, said the governor, Mr.
Rue and others are willing to accept a federally imposed mandate
that Alaska's Supreme Court found to be unconstitutional. Article
I, Section 1 of the Alaska Constitution provides that all persons
are equal and entitled to equal rights, opportunities and
protection under the law, and that all persons have corresponding
obligations to the people and to the state. He said it is probably
the best constitution in the United States, but there are still
many Alaskans who do not support equality and continue to ignore
their constitutional obligation in the hope that this equality will
be subjugated by an amendment. He said he seeks Mr. Rue's
unequivocal support of the Alaska constitutional provisions of
common use and equality of the state's fish and game, and, until
then, he must continue to challenge his confirmation as
commissioner.
Number 285
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE FRANK RUE, responding to Mr. McDowell's
concern that fish and game funds are being diverted to Earl West
Cove, said he absolutely agrees that we should not, will not divert
fish and game funds. He said he does not want to jeopardize the
department's other funding by diverting those funds.
Responding to Mr. Bondurant's comments, Commissioner-designee Rue
stated he supports the Constitution of the State of Alaska, but he
stands by his statement that our management system has become more
complex because of federal law. He also agrees that we need to try
and resolve the issue of subsistence as Alaskans and support the
governor's effort to try and achieve a meeting of the minds of
various Alaskans so that we can resolve that issue in a way that
Alaskans can support. He added that he very open to that dialogue
and will do whatever he can to help facilitate that dialogue and
help that dialogue among Alaskans.
Number 321
SENATOR TAYLOR asked for clarification of a document dated October
24, 1994 relating to the identification of Pacific salmon stocks
potentially at risk of extinction in Alaska. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE
RUE responded that it was an extension of a study that was done in
the Lower 48 by the American Fisheries Society to look at the
status of Pacific Salmon stocks that found a number of them in
trouble. That effort was moved north, basically to find out in a
comprehensive way how the state's salmon stocks are doing. It is
the department's belief that the results of the study have shown
that, so far, Alaska's salmon resources are basically healthy.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked several questions relating to the American
Fisheries Society, which is a society of professional fisheries
managers and biologists nationwide, however, COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE
RUE replied that he is not a member of the society so he could not
respond to his questions.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted the U.S. Forest Service has already done a
study, and he asked the purpose of Alaska's participation in this
study. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that the purpose of the
professional society's study and the work the department is doing
is to get a statewide look at all of our fish stocks and how
healthy those stocks are. He said it could help the department
and/or other managers know comprehensively where there may be
problems. The study by the Forest Service was focused on the
Tongass National Forest and how effective their management
activities are in maintaining the health of the fish streams in the
Tongass.
Number 442
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the proper riparian zone was, in his
opinion, for a buffer zone in Southeast Alaska's forests.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE replied that it depends on the size of
the stream, the sensitivity of the stream and what species you are
trying to maintain. Although he is not a biologist, he has read a
lot of research on these buffer zones, he has been out and looked
at them, and he has talked to the biologists about them.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if it is better to do site specific stream
management or to have cut up buffer zones, which we have right now.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that if they had the time, the
people and the proper conditions, site specific decisions are
probably better, but those three conditions seldom exist, so it
forces the cookie cutter approach. He pointed out that the state
had 30 years of site specific management and there were a lot of
systems in the Tongass where either nothing or very inadequate
buffers were left. He added that part of that was because of
inadequate knowledge.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked to what extent he accounted for the dramatic
increases in volumes of salmon in Southeast Alaska that has
occurred in the last 25 to 30 years, especially when that has been
the same period of time, for all practical purposes, that all of
the timber harvesting has occurred on the Tongass. COMMISSIONER-
DESIGNEE RUE answered that a good enhancement program in southeast
has helped the number of salmon. Research has shown that it takes
time for streams to unravel and become unproductive if there has
been cutting to close to them. It will take about 70 years for
some of the effects of poor management to be felt and the reduced
productivity of these systems to start showing up. Also, the
Forest Service has, in the last 10 to 15 years, started being aware
of some of these things and has left buffers along streams.
Number 558
SENATOR FRANK asked Commissioner-Designee Rue's definition of a
"clear cut." COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE responded that he defines
a clear cut as when all of the trees are removed from a certain
size area as opposed to a partial cut or selective cut.
SENATOR LEMAN stated the continuation of the confirmation hearing
would be set aside until later in the meeting so that the committee
could take up two pieces of legislation that were on the agenda.
SB 171 EXTEND CURRENT SUBSISTENCE LAW
Number 570
SENATOR LEMAN introduced SB 171 , which will extend the sunset date
for the subsistence law for one year, as the next order of
business. He said it is his understanding that the agreement to
extend the date by one year is an agreement reached between the
administration, our committee and corresponding committees on the
House side.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE stated the administration is in agreement
with the one-year extension, and they will be working with the
legislature and various interest groups to try to come up with a
resolution of this issue that Alaskans can support.
GEORGE IRVIN, representing the Alaska Federation of Natives,
testified from Anchorage in support of legislative action to extend
the sunset of the 1992 state subsistence statute for one year. He
said AFN is convinced that the Knowles Administration fully intends
to conduct the public process of evaluating the 1992 statutes
implementation and to make recommendations to the legislature,
which is something the previous administration failed to do.
TAPE 95-50, SIDE B
Number 001
Mr. Irvin said AFN has concluded that no administration could
complete the process in the next five months, and in order to bring
justice to the critical issues and to coordinate the formulation of
future state subsistence policy with its effort to resolve the
ANILCA impact, the Knowles Administration must be given sufficient
time to get the work done.
Mr. Irvin stated the AFN supports the governor's twin goals of a
rural preference and the return of state management, and the entire
Native community will help in any way it can and in any appropriate
manner to assist the administration to fulfill the original
commitments of the 1992 law and its review.
Number 030
DALE BONDURANT, testifying from Soldotna, stated his opposition to
extending the sunset date for one year. He said there was a lot of
effort put in during the Hickel Administration to try to come up
with some kind of a conclusion. He added that the McDowell
decision said that all Alaskans would be treated equal as far as
subsistence so he does not see the need for these laws. He
suggested everybody get together and consider that we are all
Alaskans and we all have the same equal right to take fish and
game.
Number 062
TOM LAKOSH, testifying from Anchorage, said one thing that has not
been identified in the law which makes it unconstitutional and a
violation of his rights is that the Supreme Court found that
subsistence is inherently a local use of the resources. He said he
would very much like to use his local subsistence resources and it
is a violation of his rights to consider his area a non-subsistence
use area.
There being no further witnesses wishing to testify on SB 171,
SENATOR LEMAN directed attention to an amendment being offered by
Senator Lincoln.
Number 100
SENATOR LINCOLN moved the adoption of the following amendment
to SB 171:
Amendment No. 1
Page 1, line 1: After "Act" insert "extending the date for a
review of and a report on the current law regarding subsistence use
of fish and game and"
Page 3, after line 3: Insert new bill sections to read:
"*Section 1. Section 9(a), ch 1, SSSLA 1992, is amended to
read:
(a) The legislature acknowledges and recognizes that
this Act deals with a subject of vital concern and that the subject
merits review. Therefore, it is the intent of the legislature that
the operation of this Act and the regulations adopted under this
Act be fully reviewed by the governor no later than December 31,
1995 [JUNE 1, 1994].
*Sec. 2. Section 9(d), ch 1, SSSLA 1192, is amended to read:
(d) No later than February 1, 1996 [SEPTEMBER 1, 1994],
the governor shall provide a report to the legislature on the
results of the review and proposed recommendations for statutory
amendments."
Page 1, line 4: Delete "Section 1." and insert "Sec. 3."
Renumber the following bill section accordingly.
Hearing no objection to the amendment, SENATOR LEMAN said it was
adopted and would be incorporated into a Resources CS.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved that CSSB 171(RES) be passed out of committee
with individual recommendations. Hearing no objection, it was so
ordered.
SJR 22 FISH & MARINE MAMMAL RESEARCH BERING SEA
Number 140
SENATOR LEMAN brought SJR 22 , which had a brief hearing on April
26, back before the committee.
ROGER MCKOWAN, staff to Senator Hoffman, explained the resolution
requests Congress to provide funding for appropriate federal
agencies to conduct studies of the Bering Sea ecosystem. The
Bering Sea is one of the most productive fishing areas in the
world. In 1994 the catch totaled over 4 billion pounds which
equated to a net worth of approximately $893 million.
Mr. McKowan noted that paragraphs in the resolution illustrate a
number of examples where stocks have either declined or fluctuated
dramatically, so it is obvious what the potential negative economic
impact is if there is not proper information on the Bering Sea
ecosystem. Senator Hoffman believes there are a great many
questions out there and not enough answers at this point.
Mr. McKowan said Senator Hoffman has reviewed the amendment
proposed at the previous hearing and agrees with the new language.
Number 175
SENATOR TAYLOR moved the adoption of the following amendment to SJR
22:
Amendment No. 1
"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Alaska State Legislature
respectfully requests that Congress direct the National Marine
Fisheries Service to work with federal and state agencies, and
institutions whether private or public, to ensure that efforts are
not duplicated and studies are not redundant in addressing this
important issue."
Hearing no objection, SENATOR LEMAN stated the amendment was
adopted and would be incorporated into a Resources CS.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved that CSSJR 22(RES) be passed out of committee
with individual recommendations. Hearing no objection, it was so
ordered.
SJR 23 POSTAGE STAMP HONORING ALASKA SALMON
SENATOR LEMAN stated the committee would not take up consideration
of SJR 23, and, instead, would take up consideration of a
comparable resolution that would be coming into the committee from
the House.
Number 195
SENATOR LEMAN stated the committee would return to the confirmation
hearing on Commissioner-designee Frank Rue.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if Mr. Rue personally supports the opening of
ANWR, and COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that he does.
SENATOR LEMAN asked if Mr. Rue would present a brief overview on
the status of the shellfish and bottom fish fisheries in the state.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE informed the committee that the herring
stock is in pretty good shape, except for Prince William Sound
which continues to be a real problem.
One of the biggest problems with the shellfish fishery is with the
Bering Sea which is an area of significant concern. He said it is
one of the initiatives that he tried to forward this year in the
budget because they need to get a handle on the stocks and the
status of those stocks so that the fishery is not over-harvested or
under-harvested.
Number 235
SENATOR TAYLOR stated his concern with the Prince William Sound
area being a problem, and he asked when it became a problem.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that right around the Exxon
Valdez oil spill was when things began to go downhill. SENATOR
TAYLOR wondered if the department generated most of the destruction
that actually occurred to the salmon runs in Prince William Sound
by refusing to allow openings of salmon on a huge return that came
back in the year of the spill. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE said
there was a theory that the over-escapement of reds on the Kenai
River put too many fish into the system, but they have seen much
better returns on reds than they expected from that "over-
escapement" so it has not been the devastating problem that was
predicted.
SENATOR LEMAN asked Mr. Rue what changes he has made so far and if
he has any additional organizational plans. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE
RUE responded that he has not made any structural changes in the
couple of months that he has been in the commissioner position and
he does not have any particular structural changes in mind for the
organization of the department. A couple of things he would like
to look at that he thinks will be important parts of the resolution
of the subsistence issue will be will be how the boards function
and strengthening the communication within the divisions of the
department. He wants to make sure that when working on an issue,
the divisions that are effecting that issue are involved and have
a part in resolving the issue, as well as making sure that area
managers within the divisions are communicating well.
SENATOR LEMAN asked Mr. Rue what his role was in Governor Knowles
announcement that the Cook Inlet Management Plan needs to be
changed and he would be promoting an approach that puts more fish
in the streams and on Alaskans' tables. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE
acknowledged that he was one of the advisors that helped the
governor put together the three-part framework for that plan:
permit coordination and facilitation; habitat protection; and a
review of the management of the fisheries of Cook Inlet. The
intent is to develop a process where the various users of the Inlet
can discuss with each other how to best manage those resources.
SENATOR LEMAN asked if Mr. Rue has any personal feelings about the
existing management plans for the Kenai River salmon and the
Susitna stocks and whether he would be promoting a significant
change for those areas. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that he
does not have a personal agenda or personal opinion on where we
need to go with these management plans.
SENATOR LEMAN commented that when he sees very articulate letters
from former board members about efforts being made to change the
board and its direction and doing some things that could be
damaging, he gets concerned about the outward pressures on a board
to accomplish other goals.
SENATOR TAYLOR said the federal government's recent estimate that
20 million trees died last year while Mr. Rue was responsible for
the Habitat Division makes him wonder if the Habitat Division is
really prioritizing its work very well under his leadership. He
asked if we can continue to expect to watch bug kill devastation
march through the state while the Habitat Division wrings its hands
and worries about water quality, or is he going to turn that around
and change that attitude within his department. COMMISSIONER-
DESIGNEE RUE responded that the division worked with the Division
of Forestry on state timber sales on beetle kill areas to make sure
they had a timber sale that they felt was good for wildlife,
protected fish and got trees out. He pointed out that most of
beetle kill timber was on the Kenai Wildlife Refuge and that is
under federal management.
SENATOR TAYLOR said there has been 90 years of harvesting timber on
the Tongass, and he asked why there has been a generation of the
fears about the deer populations when the deer populations are
today at their highest levels. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered
that the most significant timber harvesting in the Tongass has
happened in the last 30 years. A clear cut can be useful to deer,
and it takes about 30 years for those early clear cuts to become
unproductive for wildlife. The time from initial cut to canopy
closure, which really has the most significant negative effect on
deer, is now just going to start kicking in. He added that he
would provide Senator Taylor with the research that shows where
populations have gone down.
TAPE 95-51, SIDE A
Number 035
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if Mr. Rue supports clean water regulations
that will require the water returning to a stream after its use be
cleaner than the water that came out of the stream initially.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE replied that the department's comments on
the DEC regulations were that a user of water should not be
required to make it cleaner than it is naturally occurring.
SENATOR LEMAN pointed out that's not always how that has been
applied. For example, the Municipality of Anchorage, discharging
into Knik Arm, has had problems meeting levels of copper.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE related that he wrote a letter to EPA
suggesting they not fine Cominco for exceeding water quality
standards when they had a discharge from their tailings pond that
was actually helping the background, but EPA did not listen to him.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated that in the past, there has been no
consistency in policy within the department, and he asked Mr. Rue
if under his leadership there was going to be a change in policy
and direction. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE responded that as a
general policy direction, he will expect people to be professional,
to tell the truth and to do their job with those two fundamental
guiding principles. When that doesn't occur, he will deal with it
appropriately. SENATOR TAYLOR concluded that he wants a chief at
the head of the department who is not going to run it in the way it
has been run in the last four years, and he hopes Mr. Rue will make
some changes and apply a little common sense.
Number 260
SENATOR GREEN spoke to frustrations of many of her constituents
with the management of fisheries and a desire to see some changes
and improvements. She said as they have tried to get some real
information to see what they can do to improve things in their
district, the department always comes back to the response that
there is too little data to base decisions on and the need to get
more data. She asked Mr. Rue if there is something in place that
is going to provide that mechanism to gather data for the upper
Cook Inlet and the northern district. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE
responded that they will be tagging fish on the Deshka River, where
there was particular concern, so that they will have a better
understanding of where those fish are caught. However, he couldn't
say that they have a handle on all of the different species that
use the upper Susitna, that may be of concern. He added that it is
hard to get a grasp of how big this issue is because of the many
systems that may have five different species and many different
users on them. He noted that the department has one habitat
biologist for every 1,000 rivers in the state, so their ability to
understand these issues is limited, particularly for commercial
fishing or sport fishing.
SENATOR GREEN said it was her understanding that there is going to
be a big investment of energy and money in a sonar system for the
Kenai River, and she asked when her area could expect something
similar to that. COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE replied that the sonar
system they have in place is old and antiquated. There is money in
the capital budget and one of first places where they will probably
replace the system is the Kenai River. The reason they want to do
it on the Kenai is that they can calibrate any new system in a
high-density fish return situation. He told Senator Green he would
get back to her with further information on the prioritization of
those sonar systems.
Number 350
SENATOR LEMAN pointed out that the committee held hearings in
Soldotna, Fairbanks and Juneau on SJR 19 (ASK FEDS TO AMEND ANILCA)
and he asked Mr. Rue if he supports the concepts behind SJR 19.
COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE RUE answered that he supports the concept of
amending ANILCA to clarify the definition of "public lands," which
is part of a larger package on how we fix this issue.
There being no further questions from the committee, SENATOR LEMAN
thanked Mr. Rue for his participation and then adjourned the
meeting at 5:45 p.m.
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